Hey all,
Since we got so bloody off-topic, I thought I'd just summarize the actual points we were discussing.
First, objectively:
Should we allow our outside M2010 cards to be brought into the tournaverse, and if so, how should it be done?
Facts: There are roughly 10 people worth of sealed deck and M2010 (so 60 packs, or 7-8 packs per tournaverse player) out there that are currently not in the tournaverse, + one draft deck (green, red and white).
Article 1: These cards be added to the Tournaverse by dividing them up by rarity, shuffling, then dealing them out.
Yea or nay?
If your vote is Nay, please explain. This isn't an attempt to discredit your explanation, but it would be nice to know if, for example, you were okay with adding cards in, but not in this particular way.
Now, a subjective description of the issue:
Christos and Stu: why don't you two retards get your heads out of each other's asses and let us get to the point of playing a little bit quicker, hmm?
"Oh, but I want to see my deck evolve, watch it blossom like a beautiful flower"
You wanker. You want to watch shitty things evolve into slightly less shitty things? Go play Spore. Oh wait... that sucked too, didn't it? Yes... things that sound interesting in theory may still go on to be shallow, boring and mindless.
Bring on the imports!
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Edit: Lets drop 'shallow, boring and mindless', and replace it with 'not interesting'. Lol, I hacked that paragraph to death after I wrote it initially, and that description really only applies Spore. 'Limiting, and not in a fun way' would have been more specific to our current tournaverse situation.
ReplyDeleteActually, you know what, 'shallow, boring and mindless' does work. By limiting the cards so severely, it really limits our creativity both in deck building and in play. Combos are harder to put together and we're forced to fill our decks with fillers like Canyon Minotaur, or Zombie Goliath. I admit that fillers aren't necessarily bad cards, but they aren't interesting in the least.
ReplyDeleteYou can edit your posts, you know!
ReplyDeleteOnce again, we will get more control and ability to combo and all the rest the longer this goes. I'm not sure why you're reopening the 'great debate' when it still seems like we'll know better how desirable our constructed decks are after the sealed.
Also, your sentence detailing how many outside M10 cards are available confuses me. Are you counting all of us who played in the release tournament there?
lol, I tried! I didn't see an edit button! Oh well.
ReplyDeleteYes, we'll have more options after the next draft, but I'm not sure how that'll change things. We'll still have non-tournaverse cards that will go completely unused and we'll still have the same limited set of M2010 cards at our disposal. The argument against adding them seems to be 'Well, let's wait and see, we may be able to do without'. What's the downside of adding them?
There were two sealed tournaments that people played in before the Tournaverse started: the first was the pre-release thing that I missed, then the one that I was able to go to. I think there were roughly 5 of us at each, so 10 peoples worth of sealed, if I'm not mistaken.
lol, damn it, now I see how to edit posts.
ReplyDeletenay,
ReplyDeletealthough I like the idea of just getting new cards, I also like that I have for the most part worked for.
I don't mind the influx of commons as I think that they should be more easily available than uncommons, and rares. We have a very differenct point of view on this as has been seen in several conversations, but I think that the idea of just spreading them out is stupid.
If we did it as a prize for the sealed, such as frist gets first choice of one card from these, second, third etc
(with one or two cards maximum being chosen... I think that that would work for me.
but just taking all these cards and distributing, I think it sounds lame.
Ok. Just to clarify, is there any opposition to distributing the commons simply by shuffling and dealing? Clearly, these are most crucial for building the foundation of decks, so I'd like to get their introduction out of the way.
ReplyDeleteIf you really think just distributing them (rares) out isn't... complicated enough? competitive enough? Well, if you have a problem with it for some reason, we can use them as prizes or we can do a draft after the next sealed so that you can get the last pick that you seem to be aiming for.
Uncommons: I still think they should just be added, but we'll figure that out later.
This hasn't really gone anywhere: If you're thinking of our in-tournaverse constructed play as a type of limited play, your suggestion is akin to coming to a sealed tournament and saying "Why NOT just add in a big pile of our other cards? We'll do it really fairly." It misses the point of the limitation. Whether or not this is fundamentally a brand of limited play or a way to do balanced constructed should just be put to a group-wide vote, at the time when this becomes a real issue.
ReplyDeleteEven putting that aside, part of the problem is that adding new cards devalues what we currently have and have worked/traded to get. My collection of doom blades won't be unique, anyone else could make your blue counter/draw-deck if they felt like it, etc. Furthermore, if you're dealing out buckets of commons, someone who, say, traded an uncommon for a few commons has now gotten ripped off.
At no point was the limited-ness of Tournaverse constructed play of such a high priority in my mind, it was always about everyone being on a level playing field and no one being able to buy an advantage. Until the debate over outside cards began, I had no idea that others thought differently. Yes, given the setup it was always going to be limited in nature, but I don't feel that adding the cards that we've already purchased will change that in any significant way.
ReplyDelete"If you're thinking of our in-tournaverse constructed play as a type of limited play, your suggestion is akin to coming to a sealed tournament and saying "Why NOT just add in a big pile of our other cards? We'll do it really fairly.""
Again, for me at least, the point isn't the limited field, it's just having fun on a level playing field. Your comparison here brings up another point of mine which nobody seems willing to address: we play two other formats that revolve around limited play. We have that in the Tournaverse through sealed and drafts. I don't feel the need for constructed to be as limited as we can possibly make it, given the other formats.
"adding new cards devalues what we currently have and have worked/traded to get"
Yes, I it will. But it will also allow people to play around and try a few things. From the beginning, I've wanted to play Blue/Black. I now have some blue, but only by fluke, really. Gavin decided to play it before I did and had collected pretty much all of the cards I was looking for, but then decided not to play blue. Black... well I still have basically none of. And, as you pointed out, you have all (assuming the spreadsheet is correct) of the Doom Blades, which is basically the reason I wanted to play black (simple, powerful creature control). Well, that and Rise from the Grave, of which 3 of the 4 are owned by other people playing black, meaning I'm unlikely to see any of those or any Doom Blades for a very long while.
I'm currently playing Blue/Red and, while I am enjoying it, it isn't what I wanted to play at all. Really, I'm only playing red because that happened to be what I drafted, and Blue because Gavin did all the work for me before changing his mind.
I don't see the fun in things being THIS constricted. Yes, in a draft or in sealed what you get pretty much determines what colours and style you play, but the point of constructed is to have some control over these kinds of things, isn't it?
If everyone else disagrees with me, that's fine, we can go on like this for a bit until we get a bit more say in how we can play, at which point you can all say "See, I told you things would get better as it went on". Besides, I can probably make Christos just as angry with my Blue/Red deck as I could with a Blue/Black deck, even though it isn't really what I want to be playing.
And that's what Magic is about, isn't it? Making Christos mad?
PS: Christos: I'm going to pwn you.
One little thing to clarify:
ReplyDelete"I don't see the fun in things being THIS constricted"
This is close to what I was aiming for, but not exactly. I don't see the added fun by having things this constricted. Unless we fuck things up royally, Magic will always be fun. I just see this extremely limited selection as taking away from fun, rather than adding to it.